Ch 5: The Second Meeting

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On Monday the priests began to assemble in the great church. Many
Christian women also came with Isabella to hear the discussion. A
little later Umar Lahmi, Muaz and some other Muslim divines also
arrived and the priests were perturbed on seeing them and they began
whispered conversation among them. Just then Umar Lahmi addressed
them.
Umar Lahmi: As decided yesterday, the Divinity of Christ and Atonement
willbe discussed today. Sinceit will be difficult to deal with both
these subjects simultaneously it will be better to take them up one by
one.
Peter: Both the problems are in fact one and interconnected, so you
may take any one of them you like.
Umar Lahmi recited someverses of Surah Furqan. This changed the colour
of the face of Isabella; she was so affected that she fell down in a
swoon and her companions helped to raise her up. Peter and Michael
asked the reason of her upset but she did not reply andwarm drops of
tears began to trickle down her face. She was revivedwith great
difficulty and said on enquiry that she was having such fits for the
last month which they should not mind butcarry on the discussion. Some
of the priests suspected that she was affected by Islam , but
herassumed reply removed the suspicion and the proceedings of the
meeting were resumed. After this interval Umar Lahmi got up again and
spoke.
Umar Lahmi: Gentlemen, we have been told that the basic principles of
Christianity are Divinity of Christ and Atonement, so I want to put
just one question which will also solve the problem of the Divinity of
Christ. What was the need of the sacrifice of the "Son of God" as an
atonement ? For this purpose any pious man could have been selected
who would have given his life as atonement for all sinners. Why in
particularwas the "Son of God" crucified?
To answer this question holy Peter was again selected, but he was in
such a plight that he got up falteringly and spoke with a wavering
tongue.
Peter: For atonement the "Son of God" was necessary, for all men,
whether prophets or apostles are sinful and a sinner cannot atone for
other sinners. Since Lord Jesus Christ was the only "Son of God" and
free from sins, so he was sacrificed for the sake of all the sinners.
Umar Lahmi: Right, but just say what was crucified, whether it was
divinity or the humanity in Christ. If the divinity ofChrist was
crucified, then it means that God as one and without any partner bore
all the tortures of crucifixion and that death came on the personality
of God, that is, "God" died. But if the humanity in Christ was
crucified, then your answer loses all its force, as in that case
crucifixionof a human being and not of God could have suited, for in
both cases it was humanity in Christ that was sacrificed and not his
divinity.
Peter: Surely, Lord Jesus was perfect divinity and perfect humanity,
that both these were fully represented in him. But his humanity, like
his divinity, was free from sins and so his sacrifice was necessary.
As other human beings are all sinful, therefore, they could not suit
for atonement.
Umar Lahmi: That is, because there was no human being in the world
free from sin, "God" Himself had to come down, and His divinity was
not crucifiedbut His humanity. Suppose a person free from sins was
needed foratonement, why did not God create a sinless man to die on
the cross for atonement?
Peter: God alone knows His secrets. We cannot say why He did not do it
and came Himself to the world for the purpose. But this much we know
that God's coming to the earth for atonement indicates His great love
and affection. That is, God loved His creatures to such an extent that
He sent here His only "Son" to give his life as a recompense for
others. This purpose could never have been accomplished by sending
merely a man.
Umar Lahmi: If God had such a great love for His creatures, why did He
notsend this Son in the very beginning to be crucified? Was there no
humanity before Christ for God's concern? Why did He manifest His love
after thousands of years?
Peter: We do not know about this mystery. God's mysteries are known to God only.
Umar Lahmi: My question still stands. Reference to mystery again and
again does not serve the purpose. Now if you say it was humanity which
was crucified, then God's coming down was purposeless Some other
person could have been sacrificed.
Peter: I have given my reply. Man being sinful could not serve for
atonement. Christ's humanity served for atonement and it was an
embodiment of innocence and sinlessness.
Umar Lahmi: Since Christ's humanity was innocent and sinless, it
became necessary to put on it the burden of the sins of all humanity.
Holy priest, even you cannot understand your logic. How can I? What
harm would have been done if this "Son of God," insteadof taking on
him the burden of others' sins, had done some such good which would
have dominated the sins of all?In this case neither the burden of sins
of all should have been put on sinless Christ, nor had he been
crucified, nor even would it have given rise to the controversy of
divinity and humanity. The remedy of sin is doing good. Christ on
coming to the world should have done such a good as to atone for all
the sins, not to commit suicide for atonement.
Peter: We cannot advise God. He did as He liked. Itis your impudence
to teach God.
Umar Lahmi: You know that Christ was born fromthe womb of Virgin
Mary.Now say whether this birth related to man or God, that is,
whether it was "God" who was born, or was it man?
Peter: God is immune from birth. It was the humanity in Christ which was born.
Umar Lahmi: And who died on the cross, God or man ?
Peter: God is also immune from death. It was man who died on the cross
that is humanityin Christ.
Umar Lahmi: So the birth and death relate to Christ's humanity and
notto his divinity.
Peter: Certainly, certainly.
Umar Lahmi (holding the Bible in his hand): Just see, it is written in
the Book of Job (Ayyub) (15:14) that "he which is born of a woman" is
sinful and since the birth was not of divinity but ofhumanity,
therefore, according to the judgment of Job, even the humanity of
Christ was sinful. And see it is written in Romans 6:23 that "the
wages of sin is death," that is, death is the proof that the dead
issinful, therefore, the question comes again : why did not God
crucify some other sinful man so that His divinity was saved ?
Further, according to you, a sinner cannot atone for the sins of
others. So Christ did not serve for atonement.
Peter (perturbed and perspiring): I have also said that all these are
Divine mysteries. God didas He liked. How can you or I criticise Him?
Umar Lahmi: If your religion is based just on Divine mysteries, then
why did you call us here and thus wasted your time and ours for two
weeks?
Since Isabella was keenly interested in theological questions, she
listened toall this talk most attentively and felt in herheart that
when these priests cannot answer a question, they take the cover of
Divine mystery. Just then priest Michael rose.
Michael: Brethren, today is a confrontation between Christian religion
and Mohammedan religion. But do you know what is Mohammedan religion?
This religion allows for four marriages. It has ordered indiscriminate
killing of non-Muslims and its Apostle married eleven women and…
Umar Lahmi: If you are unable to answer my questions, say so clearly,
and then whatever criticism you have against Islam you may put forth
and I am ready to answer all. But is this your morality to call us
atyour place and then indulge in abusive talk instead of answering
ourquestions. (Pointing to Isabella Now say if this attitude of your
priests is proper.
On this Isabella at once got up and spoke in broken words.
Isabella: I have heard thistalk from beginning to end. I am sorry that
neither holy Peter nor Michael answered the questions put to them.
Umar Lahmi's demand is quite justified that eitherhis questions should
be answered or defeat admitted. But I think you will do neither. So it
is better to conclude the discussion now so that Christian religion is
not ridiculed and whatever your learning it is not exposed. It is
quite strange that…
Peter: Isabella! are you mad that you have come down to such nonsense
talk ? (Addressing the audience:) Surely this girlis possessed by the
devil and she has deviated far from Christ, and no wonder if she has
lost her senses.
Isabella : Instead of venting your anger on mypoor self you should
either answer the question of Muslims or end the discussion. I do not
want to answer here the allegations made against me, but if this is
the reward of my frankness I do not mind if you take me to be
demented.
Michael: Will you not keep quiet? Talking, talking and talking. We
have answered all questions of Muslims. If you have the courage, come
forward and answer.
A priest: It seems that thisgirl has secretly become an unbeliever.
How couldshe answer the questionsof Muslims? Her respected father
should be informed about her impudence and she should be duly
punished.
Catherine (a companion of Isabella): It is unfortunate that you have
not done justice and all of you fall upon poor Isabella. Some call her
mad, others threaten her, but no one puts his mind to the real matter.
Isabella is quite right to say that you people have not been able to
answer the questions of Umar Lahmi, but it does not mean that
Christian religion is not just. You people are worthless andare trying
to give bad name to Christianity on account of your worthlessness.
Peter : Turn out these girls from here. Who allowed these wretched
girls to interfere in our talk?
Umar Lahmi: If you allow me to speak I will explainwhat Isabella meant.
Michael: Do not interfere in our talk. It is a matter of our own.
Another priest: What if Isabella and Catherine have both become apostates!
Michael: We cannot say this just now. These girls are foolish and want
to expedite the result of thisdiscussion, although these matters take
months and even years to settle.
These were adverse comments on these poor girls and charges framed and
attributed. Seeing this tumult Umar Lahmi in his sonorous voice
recited some versus of Surah Maryam, on which the whole assembly was
struck dumb. Eminent priests closed their ears with fingers lest the
words of the Qur'an should affect their hearts. Since there was praise
of Prophet Jesus and his holy mother and the charges leveled against
them by the Jewswere refuted, Christians were favourably affectedand
Isabella's face in particular brightened. But this time she exercised
patience and firmly set. After the recitation Isabella spoke.
Isabella: Gentlemen, I call upon you to bear witnessthat I am a strict
Christianand so I do not want thatChristians should be humiliated. I
do not mean that we have no answer to their questions, only our
priests do not put their mind to them, as they think that the help of
theHoly Ghost is needed to understand the creed of Christianity.
Muslims attribute this to our weakness. I hope that after this there
will be nomisunderstanding about me. Now I request that the discussion
be resumed.
One priest: We do not at all need any talk with these "unbelievers".
Already the talk has shaken our faith. What I mean is that these
"unbelievers" should be at once turned out from the church.
Another priest: Do not talk in excitement. The matter should be
decidedafter careful consideration. I also think that the discussion
should end, as it is of no use.
Umar Lahmi: Gentlmen, you were very proud of the teaching of your
Master that if anyone slaps you on one cheek you should present to him
the other cheek also.But what is this that we see here? Have we
entered here by force? Did you not call us here? Even now if you
frankly say that you do not want to talk we will immediately leave.
But I may tell you that we have delivered our message and Allah will
not let our efforts go waste. Now, tell me if we should go or you want
totalk.
Peter: Respected monitor, the thing is thatyou cannot understand the
realities of Christian faith, nor have you come here for this purpose.
Butif you want to continue the talk you shall have to answer my
questions.
Umar Lahmi; Very well. I give you full freedom to put any question and
we shall calmly answer.
Peter: Has the Qur'an praised the Bible? Do youbelieve in the Bible?
Umar Lahmi; Certainly theQur'an has praised the Bible and we, all
Muslims believe in the Bible, Taurat (the Psalms) and all the books
revealed to Prophets.
Peter: Then why do you not believe in our Bible ?
Umar Lahmi: Because it isnot the Bible. If anyone composes a fiction
and names it Bible we are notbound to believe in it. You may put
before us the Bible which the Qur'an has praised.
Peter: Is the Bible of the Qur'an different from ourBible? Its proof?
Umar Lahmi: Because the Qur'an, while praising the original Bible, has
falsified this Bible and pointed out its wrong statements.
Peter: What are the wrong statements of our Bible?
Umar Lahmi: For instance,the Gospel of St. Matthewin 12 : 46-50 has
called Mary an unbeliever, while the Qur'an has called her Siddiqah
(the truthful), which means that she was not an unbeliever but a
believerand pious. Similarly, in the Bible (Matthew, 12:46-50 it is
said about Prophet Jesus that he was very arrogant and used to be
disrespectful to his mother, although the Taurat strictly
enjoinsrespect and veneration to mothers. But the Qur'an refutes it
and saysthat Jesus had said that he was obedient to his mother and has
been enjoined to do good to her. Or just as the Bible says that Jesus
was accursed and because of his being accursed he was crucified [*On
Christ being accursed, see Galatians, 3 : 13. t iii, 45.].But the
Qur'an calls him the "Spirit of God" and the "Word of God" and that he
was venerable both in this world and the next (wajihan fid-dunya
wal-akhirah).
A voice: You are wrong. In the Bible he is said to be God.
Umar Lahmi: Yes, it is more surprising that according to you God
canalso be accursed. That you have cursed Christ while acknowledging
him as God and do not mind at all how God Whois the Fountainhead of
allgood and perfections candeserve curse. It is the devil who deserves
curse and not God. Islam does not deify Christ but calls him human and
at the same time makes him innocent and free from sins. Now, you can
judge whether an accursed "God" is better or a pure and sinless man.
Peter: The point is why you do not believe in the Bible. You have
thrown into it the question of curse. If you have any original Bible
which the Qur'an has confirmed, then bring that to us.
Umar Lahmi: You have noright to demand this from us. If you first
agreethat your Bible is made up and forged, then you can call for the
real Bible.I have proved that the Qur'an does not affirm the validity
of the currentBible but proves it false and has openly recounted its
mistakes. Just fancy, can this Bible in which Christ has been deified
and then killed on the cross be the Bible of the Qur'an which says
that Christ says : "Inni 'Abd Allah" [I am a servant of God) and
that"Ma qataluhu wa ma salabuho" [he was neither killed nor
crucified].* Has the Qur'an affirmed your Bible or proved it false?
Peter: Has not the Qur'an called Jesus the "Spirit of God" and the
"Word of God" ? Is it not a proof that he was above humanity.
Umar Lahmi: Surely the Qur'an has called Christ "the Word of God," but
the Qur'an also says that words of God are innumerable and that if all
oceans become ink and all trees pens they will not be able to recount
all words of God as they are beyond count. So Christ also is one of
these words of God. As to Christ being "the spirit of God," this also
does not make him above humanity for the same word is used for Adam in
the Qur'an which says: "fa iza sav-vaituhu wa nafakhfu fihi min ruhi"
[when I completed the form of Adam I breathed My Spirit into him]* so
in that respect Christ is also like Adam. If Christ is "God," then
Adam and all his progeny are "God".
Peter: If the Qur'an has called Adam the "spirit ofGod," it is a
mistake as there is no other "spirit of God" except Christ.
Umar Lahmi: You think the entire Qur'an is wrong, but it was you who
wanted that the divinity of Christ be proved from the Qur'an and so I
proved from the Qur'an that he was not divine. If he can be "God"just
by being the "spirit of God," then Adam was also "God". If you think
the Qur'an is wrong in this respect, then why did you bring in the
Qur'an?
Isabella; But you believe in the divinity of Prophet Muhammad ,
although heinitiated bloodshed in the world and ordered killing of
non-believers.
Umar Lahmi: Allah forbid! I seek protection of Allah from this
perverse belief! We regard our Holy Prophet just a man, only Chief of
all Apostles and Crown of all Goodness. The essence ofour belief is
"La ilaha ill Allah Muhammad Rasul Allah" [There is no one worthy of
worship except Allah and Muhammad is His apostle]. Anyone who regards
the Holy Prophet as a God is a non-believerand against Islam. As to
the Prophet's initiating bloodshed in the world, this is utterly
wrong. He surely waged war against non-believers as they wanted to
annihilate the Prophet and the religion which he brought, but he did
not touch those who were not so. The Qur'an enjoins fighting against
those who fight with you.
Christian priests have since long spread calumnies against Islam and
attributed various ills to it. It is these priests who used to defame
Islam by alleging that Muslims regarded the Prophet as God. The
question of Isabella is theresult of this propaganda.
Michael: You say it again and again that our Bible is not real,
although it has been compiled by Disciples with the aid of the Holy
Ghost, whom even the Qur'an praises and regards them as believers.
Further, the Christians of the world have affirmed them.
Umar Lahmi: This is just the question, whether this Bible has actually
been compiled by the Disciples to whom it is attributed or some
non-believers wrote their books giving Disciples' names as authors.
Even Christians do not agree that the Disciples have composed them.
The Qur'an does not believe in the compiled Bible. It praises only
that Bible which was revealed to Christ direct from Allah, as the
Qur'an says : " Wa atainanal, Injila" [We gave the Book to Christ] and
Christ himself says : "Atain al-Kitaba" [God has given me the Book],
On the other hand, you yourself admit that the books of the Bible were
compiled by the Disciples when the Qur'an affirms revelation of the
Bible to Christ.
Just then Isabella's father(the head priest) came and took the priests to task.
Head Priest: What is this wrestling ground you have put up here? You
are talking to "unbelievers" in the holy church and disrupting the
faith of Christians. Christians come to me daily and complain of your
inability. Many Christians have wavered in their faith and say
thateven my daughter Isabella has become unrestrained. (To Isabella
You girl, who asked you to come here and what have you got to do with
these discussions? You study the Quran secretly. I know all that you
are doing. (Turning to the priests:) Yet she is a foolish girl, but
what has happened to all of you that you are bandying words with these
unbelievers and displeasing Lord Jesus. If you do any such thing in
future I will dismiss all of you.
With this snub of the head priest all the priestswere perturbed and
Isabella's face turned pale. No one could venture to give an
explanation to the head priest. But one of the priests took courage
and addressed the head priest.
The priest: Our holy father, what you say is quite true. Surely there
isnothing but loss in talking with these "unbelievers". But, O
holyfather! do you want us tobe humiliated throughout Spain? Do you
want Christianity to die out in Spain? By our Lord Jesus, if we do not
suppress them we will not be able to show face in this country. I may
alsomention that none of us could answer the objections of Muslims. If
you are kind enough to attend to our humble request I will say that
thequestions put forth by Muslims cannot be solvedwithout your
honour's help. In the whole of Spain there is no better savant of
Christianity than your honour, who can discharge this duty, and
silence the "unbelievers" by terse answers. If your honour does not
come forward to save Christianity at thistime, then, our revered
father, the consequences for us and for Christianitywill be most
serious and our preachers will be humiliated and defamed.May I hope
that your honour will be ready to solve the problems raisedby Muslims?
Head Priest: You have yourself given importance to this matterby
calling over Muslims here. It is unfortunate that you have not been
able to answer foolish questions of Muslims, even after studying the
problems of theology. Will these Muslims be rightly guided on gettinga
satisfactory answer?
Michael: Yes, it is their promise that on being satisfied they will
give upIslam and embrace Christianity. They have also given to us a
writtenundertaking to this effect.
Head Priest (to Umar Lahmi): Say, what are your questions?
Umar Lahmi: It is only if you listen calmly to what I say that I will
put my questions. The way you have treated us and demonstrated the
Christian ethics demand that I should refuse to talk to you. But since
I ama seeker of truth, I want to seek the light of guidance through
you.
Head Priest: Gentleman, you should not take offence at my harsh words
and if our talk has injured your feelings I seek your pardon on behalf
of all. Surely you seem to be a lover of truth and surely our Lord
Christ will help and guideyou. So you may come to my house sometime
tomorrow when your doubts and misunderstandings will be
dispassionately set at naught. (To priests:) You, gentlemen, may also
come so that you may know answers to the questions of Muslims and in
future you may yourselves deal with them.
Isabella – A girl of Islamic Spain